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3 years ago
Aug 13, 2022, 1:19:14 PM

So, I don't really know how it's been coded, but most of my students end up being straight? I'm on the fourth university (and I've leveled them all up to 3 stars so have been playing each level a lot before moving on,) and I've only ever had 2 non straight students in relationships? It's made me feel a little uncomfortable, especially since realising you can specify gender for the bathrooms, an addition that literally adds nothing to the game and seems like a very very very odd choice from the devs. Like of course segregating staff and students, and even being able to categorise this even further so less people use that bathroom is useful, but surely the most logical solution to this, and most relevant to the gameplay, would be segregation by course that the students take? Due to the nature of the humour and friendliness of the two point world, including the funky art style, I always thought the characters were limitless and not restricted by boundaries of sexuality or binary gender? The campiness of the voiceovers and pun jokes and everything screamed equality and openness to everyone not matter how they identify, in my opinion, until the moment I realised most of my students were coupling up in hetero relationships and the fact that we could segregate the toilets by gender. I really really hope this isn't a subtle way of revealing to us that any of the devs are homophobic or, god forbid, TERFs. Please, please can somebody relook at these choices and make the game seem more LGBTQ+ friendly because, honestly, two point hospital is one of my favourite games in the world and I always big up how great the dev team is and how important that is, but I definitely do not feel comfortable recommending the games anymore until I know that the developers are open and welcoming to queer community members too.

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3 years ago
Aug 13, 2022, 8:31:00 PM

Wow, I hope you really didn't mean, what you said here:


Tyira wrote:

[...] I really really hope this isn't a subtle way of revealing to us that any of the devs are homophobic or, god forbid, TERFs [...]

I hate how people like you are overrating things, that doesn't fit in their (your) own ideology. The fact that you can separate toilets by gender speaks for itself: You CAN do it. No one forces you to do so. I'm doing it. And surprise: I'm gay.


BUT: I feel it, when you think, that non-straight relationships are not enough represented within the game (or eventually they're not?). But it's not that they are completely unrepresented. You told it by yourself: It is possible within the game, that a non-straight relationship lights up. And like in real life you have to deal with the random chance of the existance of any kind of relationship.


But what you want the devs to do now, is to set a limit onto the percentage of types of relationships. Yeah, that sounds very free, very diverse, very openminded. *sarcasm heavily implied*

What you also want the devs to do now, is to get rid of the possibility of specifying genders for any kind of room. Even that you already don't HAVE TO use that options.


I don't think, that devs at TPS are homophobic or anything like that. Non-straight relationships are possible, genderneutral bathrooms (and showers!) are standard (!) and LGBTQ+-themed objects are available.


My advice is: Get over it. Yeah, I know, it's what straight white men people have told us (LGBTQ+-people) since ever and everytime when we are mentioning any kind of unequal treatment. But in this case no one gets treated the way you think it's getting done at the moment.


Please, rethink about it. Try to get rid of the feeling that TPS-devs are implying any kind of hate against LGBTQ+. TPS-games are definitely staying for freedom, creativity and free selfexpression. There's no hate anywhere in their games.


Cheers,

@MichelSmiles 

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Aug 13, 2022, 9:21:56 PM

Wow, I mean just wow. 


Homosexual relationships can happen, in fact there is a whole thread on the Steam forums about people complaining that every single relationship that happened on their campus was homosexual. 


As for your toilet comment about being able to segregate toilets by gender, this was a thing in TPH. 


Whilst this is a game and there is some suspension of reality involved, there is also things that are drawn from real life, one of those is the fact that almost all toilets are still separated by gender. So those people out there that don't care either way if the toilets are gendered or not, some people like to be able to separate the toilets, showers and dorms. 


Most of my toilets are gender neutral, however I did create a male and female dorm in one of the levels and each one had gendered toilets and showers. 


As for the comment about it adds nothing to the game, it adds flavor, RP, control, design etc. The default is gender neutral rather than gendered, personally I think having the default as gendered for dorms, showers and toilets is very open and accepting. 


Think about things in a bit more details before jumping to conclusions and throwing out terms and accusing the Dev's of bigots.


Edit:

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Aug 13, 2022, 9:44:44 PM

If having a minor percentage of students in non straight relationships bothers you, then , the problem isn't the game, but you. In life, that's exactly what it is, a nominal percentage of individuals. Not equally balanced. Not more than straight relationships, nominal. That's not taking away from what you are, or your relationships, but it's reality.


I tend to agree with the bathroom comments, honestly. Leave the bathrooms/showers as unisex. That's all I end up doing. It's not terribly 'diverse', I know, but it works.


Segregation? Did we suddenly go back to the 40s and 50s? No thanks! You don't need your own place, nor do I. Learn to cooperate with others, learn to play well with others, instead of insisting your own way matters, and your own belief system is important. That's one of the key things about university/college. It should be your first introduction to real life adulthood.


You're not after the game being LGBTQ+ friendly, you're after forcing your normal on others, and that's not right. This game is great, as is.

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3 years ago
Aug 14, 2022, 2:43:18 AM

Wow I think a lot of you have misunderstood my post or in fact come at me for making a suggestion in the suggestion area of the forum. I didn't say the devs were homophobic, or that they were TERFs I was saying I HOPE they aren't and that I HOPE this wasn't intentional. Also, I genuienly was enquiring as to how the relationships were formed and hoping it wasn't like they've set non-hetero relationships as a percentage. If there's cases where some people have entirely non-hetero relationships and cases where people only have a couple, as it really is random, then that's fine. I was asking about it based upon my experiences, and not knowing others experiences of the game other than what was on this forum (I didn't read all the steam reviews before deciding if my experience is valid, as I bet many others don't because I thought the devs hearing the voices of a minority's opinion would never be a bad thing, after all I'm only one person so it's not like I can change anything on my own). I was also letting the devs know it's impacted me so much that I wouldn't be promoting the game - I will reiterate that the game is one of my favourite games in the world so when I'm giving criticism it's with love and hoping to improve the game, not saying the game is awful - to friends anymore until any dev or reviews or whatever confirmed that it's not the case and that the relationships are entirely random because of course this is an issue that's very important to me. (Thanks for the links by the way, I am obviously very happy to know that that's not the case.)

Also absolutely nobody has told me what the use is of having the toilet segregated by gender (other than "realistic RP"? In a game where the characters sit on love benches to ask their crush out? This game isn't developed for realistic RP surely?). The characters were never spilt into "male" or "female" to me, and I bet to many others, until I saw these two options on the bathroom I didn't even know the characters have been given gender. you click on the characters, there isn't anywhere to see what gender they are so what, we're supposed to now guess peoples gender by their name and how they look? That doesn't sit right with me, especially knowing that these characters now have an underlying "male" or "female" assigned to them that we can't see in order to make those filters work, and I was letting the devs know that. I was saying the option is not useful and in fact makes ME feel uncomfortable that it's been added, seemingly, only to ensure the can segregate bathrooms by gender and for no other reason and that feels messed up.

That's my experience, and is a couple of others too due to upvotes. The fact you're attacking me for saying my experience also makes me feel uncomfortable. Fine if you don't feel the same way, but that's what the upvote system is for. I am not "making" anyone do anything. I was stating my opinion and then, if more people agreed they'd upvote and if they didn't agree they wouldn't. I certainly did not expect to get attacked for saying I didn't like that binary genders had been applied to every character, of course though this is the internet and everyone has to attack someone who has an opinion that is different to theirs


Also side note: I of course are LGBTQ+ but I also have many gay friends who are still transphobic so please don't think that, because you are gay, that that means you can speak for the whole community or that that means you can say that the gender separation in the game is inclusive. Your opinion is still only that: YOUR opinion. You can think what you want, but don't come at me because I think differently. I'm not pushing my ideas on anyone. I was letting the devs know my experience of the game and the concerns I had and why. This is an ideas forum. It's what it's there for.

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Aug 14, 2022, 10:45:15 AM

First off you may want to re look at your original post. No where in that post have you actually asked a question. 


Maybe part of the reason you are getting "attacked" is because that is exactly as you have done and throwing a ? after a attacking statement does not mean it's a question. Instead of asking what should of been a valid and genuine question you went on a attacking rant based off your own personal assumptions and opinions and even went as far as implying the dev's maybe homophobic or TERFs based on this and even implied you would not be recommending the game before there was even an answer.


The game can be played in multiple ways, you can keep everything gender neutral if you wish or with genders. The idea that there is no info on the character's themselves would imply this.

If you wish to play gender natural don't create separate or if you like to have genders then you can. There is NOTHING is enforcing this apart from your self but trying to force your views on others because you feel something should be done your way is just as wrong as anyone else that try's. There has to be some form of balance the world is made up of millions not just you. Some people like role playing genders some don't. 


May I say isn't part of the point of gaming is to be able to get away from the world rather then drag the worlds problems into it with you. 

Quite frankly this is quite a open game and I suggest you play the game with this in mind and just enjoy it =)


Ps. I play gender neutral and have never gone as deeply to assume genders in the first place. I like building, organisation and managing things I really couldn't care which character is what and doing what with who. In my world it's not my place to judge and everyone is free to do as they please as long as they go to class of course xD

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Aug 14, 2022, 10:58:42 AM
Tyira wrote:
Also absolutely nobody has told me what the use is of having the toilet segregated by gender (other than "realistic RP"? In a game where the characters sit on love benches to ask their crush out? This game isn't developed for realistic RP surely?). The characters were never spilt into "male" or "female" to me, and I bet to many others, until I saw these two options on the bathroom I didn't even know the characters have been given gender. you click on the characters, there isn't anywhere to see what gender they are so what, we're supposed to now guess peoples gender by their name and how they look? That doesn't sit right with me, especially knowing that these characters now have an underlying "male" or "female" assigned to them that we can't see in order to make those filters work, and I was letting the devs know that. I was saying the option is not useful and in fact makes ME feel uncomfortable that it's been added, seemingly, only to ensure the can segregate bathrooms by gender and for no other reason and that feels messed up.

Being able to select what gender uses the toilets was not introduced in this game, it was in TPH from launch and not added just for TPC. As you mention TPH was one of your favorite games, I'm surprised you didn't notice this before. 


They're using the same toilet logic they had in TPH and gone from Male/Female & Staff/Patients to Male/Female & Staff/Students. 



Also in TPH there wasn't any way to identify if the Staff or Patients were male or female either without guessing based on their name and looks, so again they've copied the logic over to this game. Admittedly there were no relationships in TPH, but coupled with the toilet separation there were genders in TPH. 


I like the fact that there are no gender identifiers on the characters, this way you can decide in your head if they're cis-gender or transgender, even with the option to have male/female/unisex toilets. 


My intent wasn't to attack you, it was to correct you on a couple of points and give a friendly nudge that as soon as you put the words TERF or homophobic in a post, most people don't see beyond that and even though you wrote you you hope this isn't a subtle way of saying they are, it can be read that you already think they are based on what you're writing. If you're going to make a suggestion or complaint about things you should do due diligence and research first, if you had you would have found the two threads on Stream where people are both complaining and loving the fact that all relationships are homosexual and it appears to be RNG how it happens.  

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3 years ago
Aug 14, 2022, 11:39:34 AM

I'm old school but... Why people are so ideologies that they only see that thing, it's not because the game give the information that you have the right to occupy yourself only by that/ Play that game and don't think like a devil! You play as god like in the sims ? You're not a god in the game, you are a professional director so don't abuse of the autority you have in the game to complain about relationship of big data. If you doing that in reallity you will finish in psichiatry, prison or alone until death.

It's a Game, ideologie as no right to be present in there and this universe is "loufoque" so all is possible, stop thinking without steping back and use your brain a little.

That's what i will say on peoples that doesn't really play games and only complaint about ideology, but they are so few and so loud... they are for me heeling dogs that need a collars and a chain.

Oh and, surprise, i'm gay and asexual, you know what ? I'm loving this game because they don't have any ideologies in there that can be to much visible
And also, this game is USA oriented, in my country campus is not like that and i'm not complaining about that

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Aug 14, 2022, 11:51:37 AM

Just my opinion, but I find your post very unfair to TPS and the games that you claim to love.


You demand someone prove to you that this is unintentional. You threaten to not promote the game that you love, and then hope that there isn't some hidden agenda within the game. It's all a little too much. It's Two Point Campus not Two Point Conspiracy.


Let me share one of my experiences after 50+ hours of play which might ease your mind. I was working on the athletic college and had set up some "romance" tables in the student lounge. I stayed there to watch and over the course of 10-15 minutes almost 70% of the couples were same sex. This was the case in many playthroughs. The amount of same sex couples was about 50% on average. As a cis it was noticeable, but I also know that random is random. I didn't get upset or feel that TPS had some hidden agenda. I just played and enjoyed myself. Should I assume that TPS is making some statement about sports and same sex couples? Of course not!


You had two options (no pun intended) and you chose to create an issue where there is none. Instead, you could have thanked TPS for being so unapologetic about the transgender stylings in the game. 


Bathrooms are unisex by default.


Showers are unisex by default.


Dorms are unisex by default.


Same sex relationships are a thing.


Out of 5 bedspreads, one is rainbow.


There are rainbow walls and other decorations.


It's nearly impossible to tell what sex the students are. Hair isn't always an indicator.


The game is very inclusive by default. If I want to play the game more to my personal preferences, then I have to go in and change all the options that you don't. And that is okay.


If anything, this goes to show that it is working as intended. We can both enjoy a play style that gets it pretty good for having to attract a large audience.


This is the opportunity to say, "Good job TPS for being a part of progress even if it isn't prefect."


So good job TPS. Your game is a masterpiece.


Cheers.

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3 years ago
Aug 14, 2022, 12:15:35 PM

Hey, I just want to say that most of my students are in gay relationships.
Rarely ever seen straight couples on my campus.
I actually think it's probably just entirely randomized!

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3 years ago
Aug 14, 2022, 2:04:43 PM
Tyira wrote:
I certainly did not expect to get attacked for saying I didn't like that binary genders had been applied to every character, of course though this si the internet and everyone has to attack someone who has an opinion that is different to theirs?

Yep, that's the most used reaction, when people like you get answers that doesn't belong to their/your opinion. Everyone is automatically attacking you. I would laugh if this wouldn't be too sad ... 


Tyira wrote:
This game isn't developed for realistic RP surely?

That's YOUR opinion. And with that question you're forcing your opinion onto others. Again.


Tyira wrote:
there isn't anywhere to see what gender they are so what, we're supposed to now guess peoples gender by their name and how they look?

Who said that? I know, you hate it, but when you set a gender to an ingame-bathroom, then all the ingame-people who uses this ingame-bathroom, have decided for themselves (as far as it possible within game-code), that they mostly identify with that gender - LIKE IN REAL LIFE! What I can agree with: The devs could implement a function where some ingame-people mention a missing gender-neutral (bath-)room, when only gender-seperated ones are placed. THAT would be a constructive critic/suggestion. Not the way YOU did it. And still doing it ...


Tyira wrote:
That's my experience, and is a couple of others too due to upvotes. The fact you're attacking me for saying my experience also makes me feel uncomfortable. Fine if you don't feel the same way, but that's what the upvote system is for. I am not "making" anyone do anything. I was stating my opinion and then, if more people agreed they'd upvote and if they didn't agree they wouldn't. I certainly did not expect to get attacked for saying I didn't like that binary genders had been applied to every character, of course though this si the internet and everyone has to attack someone who has an opinion that is different to theirs?

And again: Everyone with another opinion attacks you. Even if they don't. Meh ...

And what you don't recognize by yourself: You're saying, that you get approval, because people upvote your thread. And I think that's fine. But you ALSO say, that any other reaction is an attack on your opinion and that everyone who doesn't agree with you may just not upvote ("they wouldn't [upvote]") and nothing more. So you wanna see upvotes but you don't want contrary opinions. You know what a world we'd be living in, when no contrary opinions would be allowed? Just saying: Bye, bye, freedom of everything & everyone.


Tyira wrote:
You can think what you want, but don't come at me because I think differently. I'm not pushing my ideas on anyone.

IF I could REALLY think, what I want (and say it out loud, like you do), then you wouldn't imply, that I come at you or your opinions.
And yes, you ARE pushing your "ideas" onto everyone else playing the game. Because it's more of a complaint than "ideas".

Think about this: The game comes without ANY gender-specific object/objective/anything. And now people are sharing their opinions in here, that they miss gender-specific things ingame. What would YOUR reaction be on that? You would read it, don't upvote for it ... and leave without commenting? Well ... 

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Aug 14, 2022, 2:11:50 PM

1) Wana reiterate I'm very very glad it seems romantic relationships are randomised. Tysm for everyone who has linked proof to me that the game isn't coded to have majority hetero relationships. 

2) I'm sorry my post offended people but I was genuinely upset (and still am tbh) about the gender segregation in the game, when I thought there was none. I'm glad many are able to think, if they don't use these filters on the bathrooms then they can play the game like gender isn't binary. Unfortunately for me, the devs coding every character to literally be male or female only (in order for those filters to work) makes me sad and uncomfortable and I don't feel like that matched the ideas that I thought the game was about. Yes, I am aware there's rainbows in the game, but there's a lot of companies that monopolise on using the rainbow to act inclusive when really they are not (wana reiterate though, that I'm saying that's what TPS are doing, but yeah that's why, to me seeing a rainbow rug/bed etc doesn't necessarily mean the company supports LGBTQ+ people and that's why I still felt the need to drop this viewpoint on this forum for the devs to see)
3) Genuinely, every time I put a question mark in my original post, I meant it as to say 'I am not sure about this thing please can someone clarify'. It was not sarcasm or anything else. Also it was not a threat to say I wouldn't promote the game anymore, infact it was a honest opinion about how much I love the game and trying to describe how much of an issue it is to me, personally, and how it's impacted the way I see the game and talk about the game in the future. Again totally fine for people to agree or disagree with this I am just one person letting the devs know my opinion and take from the game, like everyone else has been doing....
Hope that makes sense!

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Aug 14, 2022, 4:09:24 PM
Tyira wrote:

I'm sorry my post offended people but I was genuinely upset (and still am tbh) about the gender segregation in the game, when I thought there was none. I'm glad many are able to think, if they don't use these filters on the bathrooms then they can play the game like gender isn't binary. Unfortunately for me, the devs coding every character to literally be male or female only (in order for those filters to work) makes me sad and uncomfortable and I don't feel like that matched the ideas that I thought the game was about.

Ok so how do you suggest they implement this? Bare in mind this is a game with very basic AI. 

There are limitations in coding this isn't done on purpose, it's a hidden code that effectively only works IF somebody chooses to do so which gives people the freedom to play the game in either way.


Since this is in the idea's and suggestions forum may I also ask what is your actual suggestion or idea since all you have done so far is criticise and tell us how upset you are at giving people the freedom of choice in playing this game.

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Aug 14, 2022, 5:18:15 PM

Just to be clear, the rainbow stuff was specifically part of a free Pride DLC that was announced in June and then included with the game launch. 


https://www.pcgamesn.com/two-point-campus/dlc-pride-stream

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3 years ago
Aug 15, 2022, 1:59:44 AM

Wow just wow!  I can’t believe your looking that flippin’ close into the game’s relationships.  Just flippin’ play the game have fun and stop overthinking every stinking thing.  

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3 years ago
Aug 15, 2022, 4:49:58 AM

So we have male, female and unisex which is more than most games on the market give in regards to gender options.  How many gender options would you like for the toilets and bathrooms in order for it to be enough and how would you list or name them so that everyone knew exactly which one to pick?  Oh and bear in mind that every single character in the game would then have to be reprogrammed to be 1 of those options and only ever use the correct facilities.


Something to consider is in the real world where we have so much of a gender spectrum how many gender options are there for public facilities?  Usually just male and female, in some places unisex.  Would you expect to see 99 different bathroom options when you needed to answer the call of nature whilst out shopping?


Its an English dev company and it is normal to see male and female bathrooms in England.  As an English cishet female in her 50's to me unisex bathrooms are still unusual.


They are never going to be able to please everyone.  Some will say more options, some will say why so many.  RNG sucks the majority of the time.  Some are seeiing all same sex relationshops and others are seeing all hetero whilst a very few are reporting a balanced mix (out of those who say anything).  I can imagine people being unhappy about all of these things.


I guess you just have to decide if you like the game enough even with the things you dislike to still play it. 



Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Aug 15, 2022, 1:12:41 PM
Tyira wrote:

1) Wana reiterate I'm very very glad it seems romantic relationships are randomised. Tysm for everyone who has linked proof to me that the game isn't coded to have majority hetero relationships. 

2) I'm sorry my post offended people but I was genuinely upset (and still am tbh) about the gender segregation in the game, when I thought there was none. I'm glad many are able to think, if they don't use these filters on the bathrooms then they can play the game like gender isn't binary. Unfortunately for me, the devs coding every character to literally be male or female only (in order for those filters to work) makes me sad and uncomfortable and I don't feel like that matched the ideas that I thought the game was about. Yes, I am aware there's rainbows in the game, but there's a lot of companies that monopolise on using the rainbow to act inclusive when really they are not (wana reiterate though, that I'm saying that's what TPS are doing, but yeah that's why, to me seeing a rainbow rug/bed etc doesn't necessarily mean the company supports LGBTQ+ people and that's why I still felt the need to drop this viewpoint on this forum for the devs to see)
3) Genuinely, every time I put a question mark in my original post, I meant it as to say 'I am not sure about this thing please can someone clarify'. It was not sarcasm or anything else. Also it was not a threat to say I wouldn't promote the game anymore, infact it was a honest opinion about how much I love the game and trying to describe how much of an issue it is to me, personally, and how it's impacted the way I see the game and talk about the game in the future. Again totally fine for people to agree or disagree with this I am just one person letting the devs know my opinion and take from the game, like everyone else has been doing....
Hope that makes sense!

I wanted to thank you for taking the time to come back and reply when you were less upset. It's a rare thing on the internet, and I appreciate it.


I hope you can still enjoy the game(s) that we all love. It would be a shame otherwise.


Cheers.

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3 years ago
Aug 15, 2022, 2:59:50 PM

I've (admittedly) skimread this thread as there's a lot to take in (disclaimer: I'm pan but cis-male, my ex (kid's mum) is enby and their new partner is trans)

Equality and diversity is 100% something every game should strive to achieve (even those where bias is expected, e.g. factual historical games - But from an ethical standpoint rather than the characters themselves)

That said, I think it's harsh to criticise the devs whose job is primarily to make a brilliant game. I think the inclusion of gender-neutral/fluid characters would be fantastic.

There's also something else I noticed that nobody's mentioned yet. The names in the game are often so ridiculous that I have no idea what their gender (cis) is in the first place.

For example, there was a character called "Bobo-Bo Hunter" or something like that. I have no idea whether Bobo-Bo is female or male, and I think this proves to me that, certainly from a playability perspective, this is actually a surprisingly inclusive game.

TLDR: The game is very inclusive, except for one thing: Addition of a "non-binary / gender-fluid" character to get us started with, as I personally would rather be able to play a level without crashing than see additional characters in the game. But that's just me.

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3 years ago
Aug 15, 2022, 5:27:10 PM

Whether we like it or not, the vast majority of us are cishet, so 2 in however many it was seems to be a perfectly proportionate representation to me. If it's random, then there's no homophobia or anything like that anyway; it is what it is. I'm not straight myself, before you accuse me of being biased. I'd say they're already humouring us by having LGBT anything.

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